Hello all,

I've been away a while due to some personal issues, but finally getting a chance to get back to normal. I've been practicing my throw and my targeting and I'm finally, FINALLY comfortable enough that the dart is going to land approximately where I intend that I think the next step in my evolution is to learn to finish without having to think about what the next shot should be (mostly).

I've been thinking that practice routines like starting at 101 and working on finishes is a good way to go, but I've found that by having to stop and check an out chart every throw, I lose all rhythm, and I can't hit what I'm aiming at any more.

Kind of a weird catch 22. I have to stop and think to know what to throw at, but I can't hit what I want if I do!

I've checked the beginner and practice sections and haven't found anybody with this particular issue mentioned, so I thought I'd throw it out in the open and see if anybody has any advice.

My first thought is: start with 41 and work UP to 170 by doing the same finish time and time and time again until I don't have to think about any of them.

Is that the way you would go? It doesn't seem like much fun, but then again, this is practice. It's supposed to be hard or everyone would do it. ;)

Thanks all!

-Mike

glad to have ya back! hope everything is good to go now. I find doing 61 up is good for me. Twice a week or so and have the majority memorized. Also helps ya learn what to hit if you miss and say hit a t3 instead of t19

Welcome back Mike, hope things are better.

Glad your darts is improving too!

Welcome back Mike. Learn 60-70 first. The fifties are easiest 51 - 11, tops, 52-12,tops and so on. Good luck buddy. Oh I know some are going to say 51 -19-db16 . Its preference.

Another great idea is to WATCH a lot of dart video's on Youtube. Oops, let me further specify. Watch a lot of PDC or BDO matches. Watch at what they shoot for when on a certain out.

I wouldn't rely on an out chart very much. Sometimes, not always, their examples are very poor. Example... with 3 darts in hand I've seen out charts tell you to shoot at trip 16 with the 1st dart!!!! That would be like ME designing an out chart for the person I'm playing against to give myself every advantage possible. BTW... shooting at the 16 with 80 remaining is TERRIBLE!!! Don't EVER do it under ANY circumstance. EVER!

Seriously, watch and copy what the pro's do. They are pro for a reason. They shoot at targets using the best % possible to finish a game of 501.

And don't use the excuse that you're not a pro or ever want to be pro. You simply wantto make the game easier.

Copy what they do.

SilverSaber wrote:

Welcome back Mike. Learn 60-70 first. The fifties are easiest 51 - 11, tops, 52-12,tops and so on. Good luck buddy. Oh I know some are going to say 51 -19-db16 . Its preference.

Without turning this into a "this outshot is better" thread. It's true some people do prefer 19 D-16 with 51 left.

But for those that do it, let me ask a couple questions.

What are the chances of busting your shot by going at 19?

Hell, I don't know either, but there is SOME chance of catching the trip 19 and your turn is over.

What are the chances of busting your score going at the 11???

That right. Absolutely 0%. It's impossible to bust with 1 dart.

Next, show me a link to a video where any pro level player goes at the 19 with dart #1 with 51 left. Good luck.

To get better at this very hard game it's a MUST that you use EVERY advantage possible.

Firstly,welcome back mate.

As for checkouts, I found I picked a lot up without realising by watching matches. But, what I think is, if your used to throwing at t20 why not use it.if the chances of you hitting a t20 to leave an "undesirable" double are better than you hittin a t14 to leave tops why not go for it. It all comes down to the stage your at....I would now go with the recomended / correct shot but I have a mate who really struggles with working his outshots out. His fav is double is tops an rarely misses it so with three darts from say 74 he would go at the t20 first and have 2 at a double 7 or 14 for tops. In his head he just drops the score until there's a double. He's very naturally gifted and this is why this works. He doesn't go the " proper" way but it works for him because he doesn't complicate it and shoots for what's comfortable

Anyway,back to learning the finishes.it just comes easier for some people.....three things I think helped me are
Playing more games-you eventually get them in your head
When playing alone,play 301 more-your near always around a finishing zone
Have a chart under the board incase you get stuck-this way you won't move your eyeline as much as having to turn round or look at the wall beside you.

My advice is go the way you feel most comfortable and more importantly...try and keep practice fun...as soon as the fun leaves practice then the enjoyment leaves the game. By all means challenge yourself but make sure its still enjoyable......if you arent already you should sign up for flight school, it was a great help for me and a number of others on here.

(insert buckfast smilie)
Good luck with it mate, mayb my waffle will help a bit

I had the same issue - I just practiced 501 all the time and it came around. I lost alot of matches because I didn't know the out shots quick enough - especially when I missed my first dart and had to re calculate

hamo wrote:

As for checkouts, I found I picked a lot up without realising by watching matches. But, what I think is, if your used to throwing at t20 why not use it.if the chances of you hitting a t20 to leave an "undesirable" double are better than you hittin a t14 to leave tops why not go for it. It all comes down to the stage your at....I would now go with the recomended / correct shot but I have a mate who really struggles with working his outshots out. His fav is double is tops an rarely misses it so with three darts from say 74 he would go at the t20 first and have 2 at a double 7 or 14 for tops. In his head he just drops the score until there's a double. He's very naturally gifted and this is why this works. He doesn't go the " proper" way but it works for him because he doesn't complicate it and shoots for what's comfortable


My advice is go the way you feel most comfortable and more importantly...

Here is an example of what I just don't under stand. Why would anyone recommend that someone go treble 20 with 74 left? Let's say you actually hit the target 1st dart. 2nd dart at a very odd number (double 7) goes high. Hey, it's possible. Turn is over. 3rd dart is useless if your opponent checks out. Game over. You have just given your opponent 1 extra turn. That's an extra 3 darts!!!!

Same out. 74. Go for trip 14 or trip 18. Hit it with your 1st dart and you have 32 or 20 left. Do the same thing with dart #2. You throw it inside. Guess what? You STILL have an out. Double 8 or double 5. You have just given YOURSELF 1 extra dart instead of your opponent 3 extra darts.

Please don't shoot at whatever is comfortable. Shoot at what is RIGHT. Each and every time.

Like I said before, watch how the pro's do it. They go the way they do for a reason.

But, if you aren't really competitive and don't mind losing most of the time and have NO desire to improve then by all means, do what's comfortable.

Its a good point JD, there is a kind of strategy in what to go for so that if you miss with the first dart you have a chance to take out the remaining total with the next 2. That works to a point, there is checkouts where you may not get a chance to finish in the remaining 2 darts if you miss with the first.

I am like Mike though its a part of the game I have not studied, mainly because I have not competed, but I do know that it can break up the flow of your game when your stuck and not sure which number to hit next.

There is a vid somewhere where Bobby George explains some of the out shots, cant find it right now but its interesting. Bobby George actually spent time memorizing all the checkouts because he said he was hopeless at maths!, I guess if you keep practising them they will get easier anyway and you will no doubt have your own preferences depending on where you are strongest on the board.

ok 74 probably wasnt a great example to use but not everyone is as good as you winmau...some people do just like to throw what they feel is comfortable when they have three darts to guarantee a dart at a double they like i.e d20

as I said above I would go the "correct" route because I am comfortable all round the board and confident enough with my throw but not everybody is. If somebody is only beginning, swapping around the board chasing an outshot can cause more damage than hitting another t20 and bringing the outshot down to inside 40.

Its just my two cents, I know there are more experienced people on here to comment on this so as far as this topic goes I'll butt out.

Winmau wrote:

Another great idea is to WATCH a lot of dart video's on Youtube. Oops, let me further specify. Watch a lot of PDC or BDO matches. Watch at what they shoot for when on a certain out.

I wouldn't rely on an out chart very much. Sometimes, not always, their examples are very poor. Example... with 3 darts in hand I've seen out charts tell you to shoot at trip 16 with the 1st dart!!!! That would be like ME designing an out chart for the person I'm playing against to give myself every advantage possible. BTW... shooting at the 16 with 80 remaining is TERRIBLE!!! Don't EVER do it under ANY circumstance. EVER!

Seriously, watch and copy what the pro's do. They are pro for a reason. They shoot at targets using the best % possible to finish a game of 501.

And don't use the excuse that you're not a pro or ever want to be pro. You simply wantto make the game easier.

Copy what they do.

I always shoot 16's with 80 left lol

The biggest advice I ever got on out shots was to learn my trebles from 15 up to 20's. Know these trebles inside and out and whenever possible use them to leave you an even numbered out. Always leave yourself an out that if you miss and hit a single you still have 1 dart left at another double. For instance don't leave yourself on 30 cause if you miss and hit single 15 you need 2 more darts to finish. 32 left you miss next dart 16 and so on..etc. I know this is common sense but it's amazing how many people I see leaving themselves that odd double. As for the percentage shots ( which are the outs that leave you another out almost all the way down to d1) those will come with time the more you practice, but for starters just learn them trebles do the math in your head before you step up to the oche(knowing what you have left if you hit a treble and knowing what you have left with a single) leave yourself them even outs and your finishing will get better. That's the first thing I tell anybody in leagues where I play when thay ask for advice I tell them learn your math!!!!
Hope this helps a little..

Quote :

some people do just like to throw what they feel is comfortable when they have three darts to guarantee a dart at a double they like i.e d20

Don't fall into the trap of having outs that you avoid just because you think you aren't good a hitting those numbers. Feel it in you that you can hit any number on the board. You end up limiting yourself when you do this. Sure there are numbers you like better but dont screw your game just to avoid a number.

Hat

I have to agree with Winmau. I'm not near as good as most on here but i do play the percentages. If your not comfortable with a percentage shot then get comfortable with it cause it can only help you in the long run. Avoid them and you will be constantly losing a dart at the double

bugger me winmau you like to talk lol

Thefox180 wrote:

Winmau wrote:

Another great idea is to WATCH a lot of dart video's on Youtube. Oops, let me further specify. Watch a lot of PDC or BDO matches. Watch at what they shoot for when on a certain out.

I wouldn't rely on an out chart very much. Sometimes, not always, their examples are very poor. Example... with 3 darts in hand I've seen out charts tell you to shoot at trip 16 with the 1st dart!!!! That would be like ME designing an out chart for the person I'm playing against to give myself every advantage possible. BTW... shooting at the 16 with 80 remaining is TERRIBLE!!! Don't EVER do it under ANY circumstance. EVER!

Seriously, watch and copy what the pro's do. They are pro for a reason. They shoot at targets using the best % possible to finish a game of 501.

And don't use the excuse that you're not a pro or ever want to be pro. You simply wantto make the game easier.

Copy what they do.

I always shoot 16's with 80 left lol

Can you imagine what John Gwynne and Harrington would say if they were commenting on your match against Barney up on stage if you went 16's with 80 left and missed? Give them something to talk about for a minute or so.
Darts certainly has evolved from the days when outdated outcharts have been printed. A lot of out shots now use combinations of 2 doubles. Like 100 for example. Miss on the first and a lot of pro's are going for 2 double tops. Makes sense to me. I am competing in a sport where we aim at targets from almost 8 feet. Would my chances be better if I shot at bigger targets? I have to think so.
Same goes for 80 left. Any intermediate player can hit a single 16 then a single 14 leaving 50. But now you are forced to shoot at the bull. Just think if that same player shot 2 single 20's. Now his final target is approx 5 times the surface area of the bull (guess). That's a MASSIVE difference. I will play the % on that combination all day long. It really doesn't change % shot at a double going 16's. You should still get a look at a double no matter what your level of play. But the size of that last double factors into the equation hugely. Chances are I'm going to hit a target that's 5 times bigger, a greater amount of time. I personally need and want those better odds no matter who I play.

lion180 wrote:

bugger me winmau you like to talk lol

Guess I'm a bit of a post ho. lol

the doubles are all the same size, but missing an odd double can be disaster IMO
I will shoot for double 3 first dart and if low go 2 double 2 next 2 darts

Thanks for the input everyone.

I've been in flight school since about 3 months into playing (and I'll have a year under my belt in a few days). That's WHY I'm finally able to put a dart within a reasonable distance of my target. (P.S. THANK YOU GEORGE!!!!)

And I'm good a math, but it still takes a moment to do calculations in my head and I have to start with "Ok, if I want to leave 32 and I'm on 77, let's see that's 45 left, so, treble 15, but if I miss and hit single or maybe an adjacent treble, that's going to leave me um... lets see 77 minus 15 that's 62, so then I would need treble 10, but if I hit a single 2 or 10, then I'll have 75 or 67, so then I would need...." etc, etc, etc.

So, no question about it: it'll be memorizing as much as I can for me. I've got something like 700 hours of play time under my belt. I reckon I can mostly memorize my outs from 170 down in another 200 or so.

No worries.

Oh, and since I don't know if I mentioned it, I did manage a top shooter award in league last season. 84.6% wins. They bumped us up into a higher division for this season with a new format (best of 3 individual 501 instead of winner take all 301, then team 601 and team cricket) but I'm not going to be able to play every week. And against better players who are used to playing the longer format, I'm not sure how I'll do.

I'll let you know.

Thanks all!

Sounds like your doing well then Mike! Keep at it!

Next, show me a link to a video where any pro level player goes at the 19 with dart #1 with 51 left. Good luck.

To get better at this very hard game it's a MUST that you use EVERY advantage possible.

[/quote] have you ever watched dart's? Lol. I have seen pro's go 19 double 16 lot's of time's. Grand slam 2012 rvb v christian kist. Rvb was on 111 t20 19 d16. What about 20 d16 for 52 finish? Is that wrong too? You're being too narrow minded. Player's feel more confident going for their fav double. End of.

Pro's don't want to leave odd number outs- doesn't make sense. However sometimes they mess up and depending how far back their opponent is they may go for the odd number out after a mess up. If opponent not on an out I will go for it but if on an out I even it up and shoot it.